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	<title>Comments on: What does &#8216;free&#8217; mean?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/</link>
	<description>Liberalism and general burblings</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: tinter</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13234</link>
		<dc:creator>tinter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 18:54:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13234</guid>
		<description>How are the terms imposed? Nobody is forcing the contracts on farmers- they are signing them because they are the best deal available. 
Consumers prefer a certain type of produce, and supermarkets use a certain distribution system. As the market is so uncompetitive, they tailor their contracts to meet their needs. Once farmers wanting to sign the contracts aren't in a huge surplus, then they won't be able to do that. 
Its not abuse, its a result of them selling a good that has limited value. Regular supply of goods requires a contract, and while there is oversupply the supermarkets can dictate terms at lesiure. 
If there was anything close to a reasonable supply of food, the supermarkets would be competing with each other. The reason farmers don't benefit from the compeition that exists in the market is that there are far too many of them.
I don't understand why supermarkets are treated as if the don't compete with each other. All drain cleaning companies are drain cleaning companies- I guess there is no competition? We need some dramatically diffrent structure in each company in order for the market to be competitive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How are the terms imposed? Nobody is forcing the contracts on farmers- they are signing them because they are the best deal available.<br />
Consumers prefer a certain type of produce, and supermarkets use a certain distribution system. As the market is so uncompetitive, they tailor their contracts to meet their needs. Once farmers wanting to sign the contracts aren&#8217;t in a huge surplus, then they won&#8217;t be able to do that.<br />
Its not abuse, its a result of them selling a good that has limited value. Regular supply of goods requires a contract, and while there is oversupply the supermarkets can dictate terms at lesiure.<br />
If there was anything close to a reasonable supply of food, the supermarkets would be competing with each other. The reason farmers don&#8217;t benefit from the compeition that exists in the market is that there are far too many of them.<br />
I don&#8217;t understand why supermarkets are treated as if the don&#8217;t compete with each other. All drain cleaning companies are drain cleaning companies- I guess there is no competition? We need some dramatically diffrent structure in each company in order for the market to be competitive?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Otten</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13230</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Otten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 16:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13230</guid>
		<description>Tinter,

I don't think anybody is suggesting that the price paid constitutes abuse. But the terms imposed, as described by Joe T, do.

If there is a courgette surplus, instead of consumer getting lots of cheap courgettes, (which is what would happen in a free market), the farmers have to dump them. It's the sort of thing that we would expect to happen in a planned economy. Why? Because a monopoly is a planned economy, and the closer we get to it, the more like a planned economy things will look.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tinter,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anybody is suggesting that the price paid constitutes abuse. But the terms imposed, as described by Joe T, do.</p>
<p>If there is a courgette surplus, instead of consumer getting lots of cheap courgettes, (which is what would happen in a free market), the farmers have to dump them. It&#8217;s the sort of thing that we would expect to happen in a planned economy. Why? Because a monopoly is a planned economy, and the closer we get to it, the more like a planned economy things will look.</p>
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		<title>By: tinter</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13221</link>
		<dc:creator>tinter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 14:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13221</guid>
		<description>Its not abuse! Goods are valued by how much people will pay for them, not by if some farmers would like to be able to continue making a living producing goods nobody wants. That there is oversupply due to subsidy doesn't somehow make the supermarkets abusive by paying the value of the goods. In the end, we need less people farming if we are going to have a sustainable sector; if that isn't achived by ending subsisdys, then it should be a welcomed correction- it will leave a stronger, better sector behind.
I wonder if you think that someone, somewhere should have been forced to buy the goods produced by the British manufacturers going out of business in the 1980's- a similar example of a declining sector. Why the special alarm over farmers?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its not abuse! Goods are valued by how much people will pay for them, not by if some farmers would like to be able to continue making a living producing goods nobody wants. That there is oversupply due to subsidy doesn&#8217;t somehow make the supermarkets abusive by paying the value of the goods. In the end, we need less people farming if we are going to have a sustainable sector; if that isn&#8217;t achived by ending subsisdys, then it should be a welcomed correction- it will leave a stronger, better sector behind.<br />
I wonder if you think that someone, somewhere should have been forced to buy the goods produced by the British manufacturers going out of business in the 1980&#8217;s- a similar example of a declining sector. Why the special alarm over farmers?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Otten</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13218</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Otten</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 12:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13218</guid>
		<description>"libertarian", you said

"After all, they wouldn’t have that power, unless the consumers wouldn’t have voluntarily given it to them."

Sure, X gives Y power, Y uses it against Z. I don't see how the voluntary nature of the X-Y relationship implies that Y cannot be coercive against Z.

"You as a consumer can choose to use only small shops, keeping them thus alive, and stop complaining."

Gee, why should I care about suppliers? That would be like cutting off my own head and handing it to you on a plate, etc, etc. 

I would rather the market were freer on a point of principle. I am not a farmer or a supermarket, so it has little to do with my own interests.

Tristan:

"Again we come back to subsidies keeping farmers in business when under free market conditions they would have gone bust, thus distorting the market."

Indeed. And this is probably the cause of the problem. Without subsidised over-supply, the fewer farmers that remained would be in a much stronger bargaining position.

So perhaps we should celebrate supermarket abuse of suppliers as a natural correction to farm subsidies!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;libertarian&#8221;, you said</p>
<p>&#8220;After all, they wouldn’t have that power, unless the consumers wouldn’t have voluntarily given it to them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, X gives Y power, Y uses it against Z. I don&#8217;t see how the voluntary nature of the X-Y relationship implies that Y cannot be coercive against Z.</p>
<p>&#8220;You as a consumer can choose to use only small shops, keeping them thus alive, and stop complaining.&#8221;</p>
<p>Gee, why should I care about suppliers? That would be like cutting off my own head and handing it to you on a plate, etc, etc. </p>
<p>I would rather the market were freer on a point of principle. I am not a farmer or a supermarket, so it has little to do with my own interests.</p>
<p>Tristan:</p>
<p>&#8220;Again we come back to subsidies keeping farmers in business when under free market conditions they would have gone bust, thus distorting the market.&#8221;</p>
<p>Indeed. And this is probably the cause of the problem. Without subsidised over-supply, the fewer farmers that remained would be in a much stronger bargaining position.</p>
<p>So perhaps we should celebrate supermarket abuse of suppliers as a natural correction to farm subsidies!</p>
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		<title>By: tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13214</link>
		<dc:creator>tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13214</guid>
		<description>Joe:
That is incorrect. The contract is entered into freely. 'Practically only customer' is not the same as a monosopy.

If the contract is not good then the farmer should not sign it and should look for other avenues of revenue or get out of farming.

If people are selling at a loss then that means that there's an excess of supply, not that supermarkets are subverting economic laws somehow.

Again we come back to subsidies keeping farmers in business when under free market conditions they would have gone bust, thus distorting the market.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:<br />
That is incorrect. The contract is entered into freely. &#8216;Practically only customer&#8217; is not the same as a monosopy.</p>
<p>If the contract is not good then the farmer should not sign it and should look for other avenues of revenue or get out of farming.</p>
<p>If people are selling at a loss then that means that there&#8217;s an excess of supply, not that supermarkets are subverting economic laws somehow.</p>
<p>Again we come back to subsidies keeping farmers in business when under free market conditions they would have gone bust, thus distorting the market.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13212</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 11:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13212</guid>
		<description>(continued from last post, pressed submit too early!)

The farmer gains from neither of these transactions but is forced into them because the supermarket is practically their only customer - and that is coercion.

In a market with more, smaller buyers (and no subsidies!) supply and demand would be balanced, prices would be elastic and not fixed, and no-one would be forced into selling at a loss - that supermarkets have managed to suspend the normal rules of supply and demand should be deeply troubling to anyone who believes in free markets!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(continued from last post, pressed submit too early!)</p>
<p>The farmer gains from neither of these transactions but is forced into them because the supermarket is practically their only customer - and that is coercion.</p>
<p>In a market with more, smaller buyers (and no subsidies!) supply and demand would be balanced, prices would be elastic and not fixed, and no-one would be forced into selling at a loss - that supermarkets have managed to suspend the normal rules of supply and demand should be deeply troubling to anyone who believes in free markets!</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13211</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 10:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13211</guid>
		<description>Tristan,

There are other forms of coercion than threats of physical violence, as you well know!

Supermarkets routinely have contracts with farmers that force them to meet the supermarket's demand on a day-to-day basis at a fixed per-unit price. If they fail to fulfill their orders they are threatened with financial penalties or the loss of future orders.

As you can imagine, this ruins the normal demand curve - if a farmer over-produces he has to sell his excess produce at a loss on the (practically moribund) wholesale food market; if he under-produces he is forced to air-freight in produce from abroad at an even bigger loss.

The farmer gains from neither of these transactions but is forced into them because the supermarket</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tristan,</p>
<p>There are other forms of coercion than threats of physical violence, as you well know!</p>
<p>Supermarkets routinely have contracts with farmers that force them to meet the supermarket&#8217;s demand on a day-to-day basis at a fixed per-unit price. If they fail to fulfill their orders they are threatened with financial penalties or the loss of future orders.</p>
<p>As you can imagine, this ruins the normal demand curve - if a farmer over-produces he has to sell his excess produce at a loss on the (practically moribund) wholesale food market; if he under-produces he is forced to air-freight in produce from abroad at an even bigger loss.</p>
<p>The farmer gains from neither of these transactions but is forced into them because the supermarket</p>
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		<title>By: tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13205</link>
		<dc:creator>tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13205</guid>
		<description>tinter: Exactly right. Well put.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>tinter: Exactly right. Well put.</p>
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		<title>By: tristan</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13204</link>
		<dc:creator>tristan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Aug 2007 08:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13204</guid>
		<description>Joe:
Where is the supermarket coercion?
Are they using force? Are they breaking people's legs if they refuse to sell? Are they taking people to court to force them to sell? (which would of course be government coercion).
A disparity in purchasing power is not coercion.

Duncan:
The market distortions are not of their making though. The whole planning process distorts the market. 
Distortion of the market comes from use of coercion, which unless Tesco are breaking legs or threatening people comes from the government (perhaps at Tesco's request, but that's still government force).

As to your assertion that you are a Liberal not a libertarian, libertarians are liberals (although not necessarily Liberals). You seem to be asking for the world to be forced into your view of how it should work, which is not liberal.

You also still do not understand the meaning of free in this context. The market in which superstores exist is not made unfree by their existence. Nothing about that is unfree. If small shops cannot exist because people are lazy, then that is a consequence of freedom. Freedom does not mean the freedom to run any business you like and to succeed. Freedom means the ability to pursue that given you have the resources without coercion from another body.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe:<br />
Where is the supermarket coercion?<br />
Are they using force? Are they breaking people&#8217;s legs if they refuse to sell? Are they taking people to court to force them to sell? (which would of course be government coercion).<br />
A disparity in purchasing power is not coercion.</p>
<p>Duncan:<br />
The market distortions are not of their making though. The whole planning process distorts the market.<br />
Distortion of the market comes from use of coercion, which unless Tesco are breaking legs or threatening people comes from the government (perhaps at Tesco&#8217;s request, but that&#8217;s still government force).</p>
<p>As to your assertion that you are a Liberal not a libertarian, libertarians are liberals (although not necessarily Liberals). You seem to be asking for the world to be forced into your view of how it should work, which is not liberal.</p>
<p>You also still do not understand the meaning of free in this context. The market in which superstores exist is not made unfree by their existence. Nothing about that is unfree. If small shops cannot exist because people are lazy, then that is a consequence of freedom. Freedom does not mean the freedom to run any business you like and to succeed. Freedom means the ability to pursue that given you have the resources without coercion from another body.</p>
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		<title>By: tinter</title>
		<link>http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/comment-page-1/#comment-13189</link>
		<dc:creator>tinter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Aug 2007 21:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.eridu.org.uk/blog/2007/08/29/what-does-free-mean/#comment-13189</guid>
		<description>People shop at supermarkets because they are cheap, convinient and provide goods that are percived as high quality. Claiming people are somehow forced not to go small shops by their own laziness is both insulting and ridiculous. Small businesses are not charities and do not deserve charity, which is basically what you are asking for.
Beliving government should regulate corner shops into success is wanting government to force society to be the way you want it to be. 
I, as a Liberal, believe it should be shaped by the choices made by millions of ordinary people every day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People shop at supermarkets because they are cheap, convinient and provide goods that are percived as high quality. Claiming people are somehow forced not to go small shops by their own laziness is both insulting and ridiculous. Small businesses are not charities and do not deserve charity, which is basically what you are asking for.<br />
Beliving government should regulate corner shops into success is wanting government to force society to be the way you want it to be.<br />
I, as a Liberal, believe it should be shaped by the choices made by millions of ordinary people every day.</p>
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